10: Filmmaking Insights: Location Scouting and Group Fighting Scenes

With a tight six-week timeline from pitch to production, Lee Alan Donaldson (Essex, UK) and his team are now taking their new short film "Jackal and Hide" into a season of film festivals,   

From securing breathtaking locations to ensuring weapon safety on set, this episode is addressing important components to make a short action film a success. Join us as we unpack the intricacies of casting and choreography for film. Discover how stereotypes and physical attributes can be both utilised and subverted to create plot twists. The team is also focussing on selecting the right film festivals, choosing quality over quantity to maximise the film's impact.

Lee also shares his story and what brought him into the realm of motion capture technology and performance capture, adding another dimension to his already expanded skill set.

Guest's Instagram:
@leeadartist
@jackal_and_hide_shortfilm

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Loud Whisper Takeover podcast. As you know already by now, I'm an action actress, also making my own movies, and in the pursuit of making my own movies better and bigger. I'm just interviewing a lot of interesting artists filmmakers, stunts, other action actors so that we can gather a base of knowledge that all of you can learn from. Today I have a very special guest Straight out of the UK. He's based in Essex. He's an action actor, a stunt. He also does mocap, motion capture and performance capture. He had an appearance with a small role in the Witcher and he's now coming out with his own indie short film called Jacqueline Hyde. Please welcome Lee Allen Donaldson. Hi Lee, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:49

I'm good, Cindy. How are you? Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Super excited to talk to you today. So before we talk about Jacqueline Hyde, which is like your new baby that is coming fresh out of the oven, how about you tell us a little bit more about you as a stunt and an action actor? What kind of training did you do? How did you end up doing choreographed fights for screen?

Speaker 2: 1:13

So, like most people who are interested in pursuing stunts, majority of stunts, which you probably know, do involve fighting and screen combat. So I did my research and looked around to see what type of providers would give you good training in various workshops whether that be unarmed with weapons and whatnot and then basically built upon that to then develop into the actual stunt aspect with regards to high falls, stair falls, fire and other things that you can do within reason when you're still training as a stunt trainee let's say, for example, for the British Stunt Register. But basically most of it's come from experience with working with trained professionals of various workshops and training academies or through just literally doing it yourself, which is where, where, as you know, most of the time you learn the most when you apply what you've been shown and taught by others on your own so you're also falling from heights and you're also putting yourself on fire.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Are there other skills that you kind of master or trained in as a stunt?

Speaker 2: 2:21

so obviously stunts is very broad. There's many different type of niches and many type of standard categories, but I tend to focus mainly on wires, fighting, firearms, falling, whether that's the high fall, like I mentioned, could be eight, ten meters, for example stair falls and whatnot. So they're kind of main areas, but everything seems to always stand back to a form of fighting or martial art or some type of falling. Any stunt really is falling or fighting primarily, unless you, like I said, go more particular with what you need to do, like like fire, for example, which is obviously a lot more dangerous may I ask you a couple of questions about all what is to do with wires, because I would absolutely love to do some fights in the air and stuff training.

Speaker 1: 3:07

There's a few independent stunt coordinators who do workshops.

Speaker 2: 3:28

There's a couple other companies that do a mixture of circus, aerial and wires for for see a show reel and I've gone with one of the independent stunt coordinators for a few sessions. But in terms of doing it myself, I wouldn't claim to have the skills or understanding of how to to do the rigging, because it's a significant skill, it's a very hard thing to do and safety is paramount, as you know, with wires. So it's not the sort of thing that might me and my team would ever set up ourselves, like, for example, in the woods with trees or whatnot. And I definitely haven't done it on the job because you have to be vetted. You can't just, you can't just do it. You need to have obviously some previous experience and evidence of your experience there. It's this type of thing you can't just, you can't just do yeah, in the world of circus is the same thing.

Speaker 1: 4:19

I did some aerial circus, like I was attached to a bungee in a harness but the other person that was attached to me and that was the rigger. Obviously they have a whole other toolbox and knowledge and training and they know what they're doing. I'm just attached to it and I'm dancing in the air sort of thing, but the rigger. I obviously had another expertise. So on top of being an action actor, being a stuntman, being a filmmaker and making your own films, you're also involved in mocap, motion capture and performance capture. Let me know if I'm wrong here. So motion capture is when you wear a suit and you have sort of bubbles on the suit and then you're moving and then they transform that into data and then they can make a character out of it. And performance capture is a bit the same thing, but there is something about your facial expressions that is that is also being used. Um, is that right?

Speaker 2: 5:16

yeah, the two key differences in performance capture are they capture your facial movements and also your voice. So in motion capture, yep, it's just purely biomechanical, it's just um capturing of the body's movement. The skeleton performance capture is facial recognition and your voice.

Speaker 1: 5:32

So we're capturing your voice as well as your face and so how did you get into that, how did that cross your path and how did you actually started to do castings in that field, or how did you train?

Speaker 2: 5:43

so there's a, there's a company called motion mocap vaults and they do a lot of training, a place called mount view in london drama school and they do workshops which eventually build up if you manage to go for enough stages to actually working in the volume and being in the suit doing, you know, proper scenes, pre-recorded work, um group work, solo work like monologues in the suit and being tracked and having all your data captured. So they actually do the training because a lot of actors don't understand how to um cross over into that medium. So they they help to facilitate that process. But I am aware of some actors or stunt performers who have managed to go into motion capture with no training whatsoever. So it generally boils down to what type of talent and transferable skills you have and what type of agent you have.

Speaker 2: 6:39

Within motion capture in the uk it's still very niche. It's still quite small relative to other areas. However, it's growing rapidly and there are more um mocap specific agents appearing, but there are. There are still less than five that I'm aware of and I have one of them and she's very good at finding me motion capture castings and performance capture ones um, some incredible ones actually. So it's a process of having an agent who represent you, but also having some form of training, because in my opinion, it's not this type of thing. You can just wing it's. It's a completely different form of acting. Anyone, anyone, can stand in front of a green screen but still have more to interact with, but in motion capture, as you've seen, there is literally nothing. Your imagination is the only thing that's going to allow you to make that person playing you. If you're a game, for example, or character, believe that that's really that character. So if you're lacking in imagination or you're too serious as a performer, it's very difficult to pull it off.

Speaker 2: 7:50

Put it that way and so even if you are a stunt or if you were a dancer or something, would that still be a very difficult transition to make so I think, when it comes to dancers and stunt performers, if they're only doing the movement, quite easy really, because they're not having to act, because we're not going to see or hear anything they do, we're just tracking the skeleton. So if a stunt performer let's say they fell off a wall onto a box, we're just tracking that trajectory of that body moving and the skeleton. A dancer we're tracking. You know how they say they're saying that a ballet dancer. They do a plie or they go on their, their points and various other movements.

Speaker 2: 8:33

We're looking at that. So really they're just doing what they would normally do, but they're kind of an, they're just an avatar that there's. No, the audience doesn't need to see any emotion or any physicality, because that's going to be drawn on after. So you can get mocap jobs easier if you're only doing mocap, but when you want to take it seriously as performance capture, you need to be a very well-rounded actor because you can't fake certain things. It will mess the data up and they just have to keep correcting it. It costs them a lot of time, a lot of money.

Speaker 1: 9:09

Right, I see and can you clarify. So you have an agent that is also specialized in finding new jobs in that field, or are these agents just doing mocap?

Speaker 2: 9:19

My one from Reflections Talent Agency.

Speaker 1: 9:23

She focuses on mocap and stunt performers only right, and will we be seeing you doing this kind of things in your own work, or is this something that you're like? No motion capture is that's what? That's what I do for other productions, but not for my own or is this also part of your future sort of?

Speaker 2: 9:43

vision, yeah, with motion capture what I'd like to do is either develop partnerships or, if I have the my own capital, to actually uh, build my own volume, whether I can then expand upon the universe that's in my head, basically to create new films and stories through motion capture. So if I, I will develop it in that manner over time as technology improves and the cost comes down for the data, the software, the hardware, the kits. But until then, I'll just keep improving and learning about that medium through castings that have come through my agent.

Speaker 1: 10:19

So is that a medium of film that costs even more than doing a normal film, Like would you put a zero behind it or would you double the budget?

Speaker 2: 10:27

I'll give you an example Each finger per frame, per second costs about $50 when they're capturing data. So a couple of minutes of data capture just for a few digits on your hand can cost tens of thousands of pounds, wow. So this is why people complain about games being so expensive. But the amount of money and processing power it takes to capture the data before they even transfer it and then work with it is so extensive and so so detailed. It, it, the, the, the budgets are just unbelievable. So it's not, that's not the type of thing that uh, you know, me and my team would be able to sell. Fun to do it that way. Until things change, maybe the the price might go down over time as it becomes more widespread. They introduce it in some more film, as you know, planet the apes, the new one that's been released, it's all motion capture, but the budget for that was significant based on all the work that was required.

Speaker 1: 11:32

So when it comes to short films, it's not a possible route just yet so, in general, when you're doing stunts because we're going to talk about jacqueline hyde as well, which is an action movie there's there are a lot of fights happening in that short film. What is what makes your heart beat? What do you connect with with these characters that fight? What is exciting about it for you?

Speaker 2: 11:55

for me, it's just um, the variation in people's uh, physicality, like their, their body types, their, their physical prowess, and how they come together and and obviously, have to fight. In those scenarios, which what excites me because, as you know, you can never have the perfect opponent people always going to be different, there's going to be contrasts and, in terms of whether that you look at from a professional standpoint or just from a general standpoint, there's always something different to watch from person to person or group to group. And that's what excites me when I bring different people together and watch them create the magic through the choreo that's in my head. And that's what excites me, because sometimes people throw in moves that you didn't think would work, or they have a certain style and type of like, the way they move, their body language is a bit more interesting and dynamic perhaps, and that's what excites me, because it's never the same, it's always different.

Speaker 1: 12:54

Yeah, let's talk about body types and stuff, because that's so true. We can have a character that doesn't look like a fighter and then we can create a scene that is fantastic because all of a sudden they transform as actors into this warrior type. So, jakal and Hyde, you had 20 performers in total. Were the 20 of them involved in the action scenes or not?

Speaker 2: 13:17

So in one of the scenes there are 12 um stunties fighting and in the other there's 18, so we had nearly all of them within the two main fight scenes, but the other performers were just acting only what kind of body types were you working with?

Speaker 1: 13:34

did you have tall people, short people, skinny people?

Speaker 2: 13:37

yeah, we had yeah, we had.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Obviously it's a mixture of men and women, and the majority of the women were very petite and slender. Um, there was one very tall girl who's over six foot, um, but the rest of the men really varied. You've got your, your typical five, five, six to five nine type of man, or then you've got your six foot plus big guys, and then just your more normal type of men and women. It was just such a contrast of physiques, but the majority of people were on the smaller side opposed to the larger side, I'd say.

Speaker 1: 14:14

And do you take their body type into consideration, not just when you're choreographing, but also when you're developing these characters? Would you go with okay, you are petite and so you're gonna kind of you know, I'm gonna give you the role of somebody that can't fight. Or do you like to have a plot twist where the most petite becomes extremely powerful? Or how did you play with these physicalities?

Speaker 2: 14:37

when it comes to the development of character and the storyline, not everyone who was on the film I'd actually worked with before, but the majority of my head, so I already had in mind what type of role I thought they could play in character. But the few that were wild cards and ones I vetted later on in the casting process. I flipped it, you Some of them, I made them stronger than they would have probably looked like, and then it was also the vice versa of that. We put in scenes and elements where we assumed someone was dead, but then we hyped it up in a way that you know how the bad guy never dies.

Speaker 2: 15:13

If you're watching a film and you think to yourself how comes this guy just won't die, how many more times do I have to stab him, punch him, kick him, shoot him? So we had a couple of scenarios where we did that just for the kind of comedy factor, and then other points where you'd think that person, because of their size and stature, should be slow and should be not so dynamic. They were incredibly fast and agile and were really tough to kill. So we just we didn't always, um, do the stereotype for every character.

Speaker 1: 15:45

We did mix it up a lot just to try and show the audience versatility of the actors and stunt performers, but also just to just to not make it so predictable I'd love to talk to you about the casting process, because you said you worked with people that you knew already, that you had already worked with, and then there are some new people that came on board. What was your casting process? Did you cast them in person? Were their self-tapes involved? Did they have to come to a rehearsal like? What were your criterias of how you chose the right cast?

Speaker 2: 16:16

tell us more the first things first, like I think, in any scenario when you interview someone, I I did zoom meetings and got to know the person first, because even through a computer or phone you can still get feel for the type of person they are just by communicating face to face. So I did that first. They would also send me any content they have, like show reels and whatnot, which I can review to kind of assess their ability, which then I could obviously imagine where I see them in the film and scenes. After that, when I was happy with my selections, they then came to three separate rehearsals where we paired them up with people I believed they'd be suitable with and then I assessed them and then from that we built upon their routines and their character and their roles. From that point onwards we had four rehearsals in total three three were not on location and one was a mini rehearsal on location on the first day. So that's kind of the process I went through and it seemed to work very well.

Speaker 1: 17:18

You had four rehearsals in total for the fighting scenes.

Speaker 2: 17:22

Four rehearsals in total for all of it? Yeah, because obviously the 12 versus 6 was an incredibly complex piece of work to put together, so that took some time. Plus, we had to rehearse the dialogue scenes as well at the same time.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Four rehearsals doesn't seem very much.

Speaker 2: 17:40

No, it's not. But we only had six weeks to prepare. Wow yeah, from pitching I pitched my idea and concept to the director end of January, and then we had all of February and par part into March to prepare and rehearse, and then we shot in mid-March. So time was of the essence because, as you know, usually from April, May in the TV and film world people start getting busy and working and the directors were unavailable in April so we had to really push it with a tight schedule.

Speaker 1: 18:21

I think that's also very inspirational, because in January you pitch your idea, february, march make it happen. You're going to post-production. Right now, at the time of recording this episode, it's the month of May and you're already starting festival season, and I think it also gives a lot of hope to artists in terms of, well, once you get the ball rolling in a few months' time, you can make something happen.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Yeah, of course, obviously it has been stressful at times and it's a lot of pressure and a lot of work, but ultimately we've created the proof of concept and with the correct time management and project management, you'd be surprised what can be achieved. And when a team support one another and this is a very large team as well amazing things happen and there's been a loss. There's been a lot of swift. Swift work done, very good work, and we're just showing people that stop talking about things and just do it. You know, I could have been talking about my idea for months. They never taken off the ground. We were given opportunity.

Speaker 2: 19:20

The directors believed in my scripts and me as an actor and a person who can manage people and projects, and we just went with it. You know, because if we didn't do it, you have to remember people's availability changes all the time. As a performer, you have to take jobs where they can come. If so, you know she might not get work again for a while. So I was also pushing to do it as soon as possible to make sure I didn't lose my performers, because once I made my final selections, that's that was my team.

Speaker 1: 19:49

I didn't want to make any more adjustments to the cast I want you to clarify, if possible, um the fact that you said that you had a proof of concept. Did you have a proof of concept to pitch it to the directors and if so, what was it?

Speaker 2: 20:03

or actually this short film this is the short, yeah sorry yeah yeah, the this short film is our proof of concept to other directors who I've spoken to, who are interested in working with us on further projects. So because we as a team and me as an individual, I wanted this proof of concept to one, get interest with other directors for developing other projects and, two, to get investment to expand and develop other script ideas.

Speaker 1: 20:30

So that's why we did it in that aspect so this is a proof of concept to show look, this is what I can do, but it's not to turn this particular idea into a feature film. It's more a proof of concept to find fundings to fund other scripts.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Yeah, we're open to developing this into a feature film or perhaps a TV series. However, we have more projects, particularly period-based and futuristic, in the, let let's say, dystopian style, concepts that we want to work upon more. So I wanted to develop this film to show people what I can do as a producer, a writer, an actor, a stunt former and whatnot within this time frame. If I can do this with this little time and this little funding, what could I do with more money and more time and more preparation? So that's the spin we have. We believe that people will recognize us and give us credibility for not just a job well done, but a job done fantastically, to the one of the highest standards, for such a short period of time to work on it.

Speaker 1: 21:40

So you worked with a budget of £4,000, is that correct?

Speaker 2: 21:44

Well, initially it was £2,000. And that was based on location directors expenses, catering because obviously I was in charge of catering as well. I was in charge of locations in terms of getting props and other things and whatnot. But luckily we got stuff through friends and family and connections. So originally it was £2,000, which was self-funded for all the performers. And then unfortunately, like anything, things go over budget despite how much you plan, and then that's mainly from post-production.

Speaker 1: 22:20

We had unexpected costs which we didn't plan for, so that's why it's doubled, but we still have made this with very little money really and so basically the money that you got the 4k came from people investing in themselves and in this project, because everybody wants to make the most of it yeah, imagine.

Speaker 2: 22:41

So the way I pitched it to the performers was some people need more experience than others. Some people need a top up on their show reel, some people need some professional credits on imdb. So I said you have a choice here. You can spend £100 and cover your expenses for rehearsals and traveling to location and you can be part of a film, a new concept, and walk away with some very good contacts, experience and reels, or you can spend three, four times that and not really get anything from it if you go elsewhere. That's what I pitched to them. All in all, I would estimate everyone probably spent about 200 pound each. Obviously the producers, including myself. We've invested a bit more and we do have a crowdfund page to top up some of the shortage we had after the filming, but prior to filming we paid for all ourselves, all the performers. The crew did not pay towards it, but the crew took an agreement on expenses only or based on the love of being part of a passion project.

Speaker 1: 23:46

Love it. That's really fantastic. And what are you doing in regards to the budget for distribution now to pay for film festivals and all that sort of things? Are you going to self-fund that as well, or are you looking for particular fundings, applying for grants?

Speaker 2: 24:01

Self-funding for the moment. If I think that more money is needed, I'll explore grants and whatnot. But we're trying not to overdo it. We're being very particular in who we select and who we contact and where we showcase it. So obviously, this is still all new territory, so we will learn from it. If perhaps we'd missed a few or we should have done less, but I'm trying to go for less rather than more for the time being.

Speaker 1: 24:27

So how do you select the film festivals where you're submitting your work? What are your criteria?

Speaker 2: 24:35

So, mainly because it's all action, of course, any action-related film festival, and then ones that highlight specialist skills, highlighted things like Foley or VFX. I've been looking into ones that highlight those skill sets for best picture or best sound and whatnot, and it's all on either my own research or my team's recommendations for ones they have either previously used or they're aware of, because ultimately, as you know, you've got probably friends in the circle that they've been involved in TV pilots or short films or whatnot, and the people involved submit to various film festivals and we all tend to be aware of what the right ones are for our criteria. So I've learned of ones through just other performers that I know, of being part of that screening or that showcasing, so I've obviously come across various ones over the years. Anyway, again, like I mentioned, with the directors who also submit regularly to their own for their own work they've given me an extensive list also.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Yeah, it is very important because I was talking to a friend. He came on the podcast actually and his first short film he was like Cindy, I overdid it so much I would never spend the amount of money that I spent on film festivals ever again. But I didn't have a strategy. But I had to go through it and learn.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Yeah, I think that's fair enough Ultimately. Go through it and learn. Yeah, I think that's fair enough Ultimately. I think, like anything in life, less is more. It's quality, not quantity. If your work is good enough and people like it, it will get its own traction and build its own momentum, not just through the film festivals but through social media, viral exposure and sometimes just organic exposure elsewhere. So that's why I've just pinpointed a few particular ones and I'm happy with those for now, because they're the ones I want to really hopefully enjoy our film.

Speaker 1: 26:29

And then I would love to talk to you about VFX. So for my short film it's a sci-fi and it was my very first time working with a real, proper VFX specialist, working with a real proper VFX specialist. So obviously it's a sci-fi. So we're sort of in a dystopian world and we needed to create that world. But for you VFX in Jekyll and Hyde needed to be added because you had fighting scenes with blood and stuff. So tell us more about your creative process around that, from makeup to VFX.

Speaker 2: 26:59

Yeah, so we had a really talented makeup artist and prosthetics and person called rebecca wheeler and she was fantastic with the rigging. She we had one scene where someone was shot and the blood was being pumped out through the trousers so she did some rigging on certain people and also prosthetics and others. There's so many. There's so many deaths and so many slashing of knives and various hits. It's impossible for one person only to rig that many people. So we already had, we already foresee that. We foresaw that, sorry, before we filmed and we said what we'll do is we'll use.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Funny enough that the person doing the vf was also our sound operator. He was doing sound because he's quite a talented man really. He said, yeah, I'll help you after and we'll fill in the gaps where there should be blood or there's continuity issues perhaps. So I'll clean that up and things like that. So we knew previously with the shot list what we had to add in, so we'd already discussed that. Now he's doing that, but it's not a great deal because most of the makeup is covered or the rigging. It's just a few little areas where if there's a viewer who's quite got an eagle eye for certain things if, like I said, for example, where someone gets stabbed and then the knife is withdrawn and there's no blood. We have to fix that.

Speaker 1: 28:23

So there's little things like that and may I ask as well, because for for our vfx artists, so for a big part of the process, she was already involved from pre-production, but then there were a couple of shots that didn't come out the way we wanted and in post-production we wanted her to change stuff, but because, because you need a lot of equipment or softwares or whatever, sometimes it's not possible because there is no budget, because the camera is moving instead of vfx. We wanted it, didn't, we couldn't do it because the way it was shot just wasn't working. Was there anything that you had to take into account? Knowing that you were going to do vfx, knowing you were going to add blood, was there a way that you had to film it to make sure that that was possible and realistic to do it?

Speaker 2: 29:06

no, we didn't have to do that, we was okay yeah, we was quite covered.

Speaker 2: 29:10

It was just a case of just waiting to see how the footage looked before we decided what to add. But we were always checking the monitors regularly. Even though I was performing, I was constantly monitoring the monitors, as well as getting people to do that, to make sure that there was less work for the VFX artist to do after. So we just made sure, we just made sure that the DOP and the other camera operator got what we wanted, because, again, we only had three days to shoot this, by the way, and that is a lot to fit in in three days. So we couldn't afford to make mistakes and essentially ask the vfx artist to do more work, because each segment that he works on takes a day. It's a lot of work for such a little small, small sequence or time timestamp. So we were fortunate that we didn't have to do that.

Speaker 1: 30:01

And how long is Jekyll and Hyde in total?

Speaker 2: 30:03

It's just under 13 minutes.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Awesome. Maybe talk to us about what inspired the story as well, because one of the things from what I've seen of the trailer, I'm really blown away by the location. But maybe before we talk location, can you talk to us about what inspired the story and also where it happens.

Speaker 2: 30:22

Yeah, so in my head for a long time I've had this story where I'm a thug well, I'm a rival gang member to another family and it was kind of showing vulnerability to a character who's normally very hard and invincible and untouchable who's normally very hard and invincible and untouchable. And I really wanted to bring in a woman to that dynamic my on-screen wife and essentially set up a huge fight scene. Because I'm inspired by all types of fighting and action films. The Raid is one of them that we drew reference from. I don't know if you've seen the Raid, it's a fantastic fighting film Indonesian and I'd had this cooking in my head for a long time that I wanted to see a strong character in a vulnerable, weak position who was then being weakened by torture, humiliation and then having his wife or loved one close to him, so showing more emotion, but then, on the flip side, showing the spin of him, then getting back into control, but still being presented with obstacles. Because we wanted to make it and I always wanted to make it not an easy escape, because it's essentially an escape film. The whole process is myself, my wife and my team breaking in to help us escape this compound, this holding place where these, these thugs have been keeping us hostage, basically, and I've always wanted to do a massive fight sequence.

Speaker 2: 31:50

But a lot of the time when I've been cast or been put forward for for battle scenes, it's always period and I really wanted, wanted to do a modern fight, like a street fight, with baseball bats, knives, fists, kicking, anything you can get your hands on, type of thing. And that's where it came from. Obviously, I had all the pieces in my head and when I spoke to Charlie the co-writer, he just kind of refined and created the world of Jackal and Hyde, because I didn't have I didn't have, um, character names or rival names in my head, I just had the concept of what I wanted to do. And then he took that and then created, like I said, that world of the Jackal Jack. Well, it was. I say it's the Jackal and Alderson's. The Alderson's are the good guys, which is my team. Jack was the bad guy, bad guy, sorry. And uh, yeah, he, he, he helped to create that question about your writer.

Speaker 1: 32:44

It was is your writer like a, an action writer, or is he just a writer? And then you visualize the fights in there like what was your creative process?

Speaker 2: 32:54

yeah. So obviously, yeah, he's the writer's, more of an. He has been involved in some action films, but primarily he does period, more so, and less action, more just soft acting, should we say. So that's where I was bringing into the table the fighting, the aggression, the violence. And he was just writing it because he's not a stunt performer, he's not a stunt trainee, he is an actor and a writer. So he helped to like quite a collaborative process.

Speaker 2: 33:28

Initially he wanted to write it in an acting only manner. He didn't want to put stunts and action in it. But I said no, we must combine it, because I wanted to showcase everyone's abilities in both aspects, both acting and stunts, and that's why we we combined it, because some people would say it's too ambitious to have the acting part and the stunts. You should have just done a stunt film. But the way I see it, if we've just done acting or we've just done fighting stunts, those would have just been a fight reel or a normal acting show reel, and that's not a film.

Speaker 2: 34:29

A film has multiple layers and dimensions and that's where we've got the contrast, where you'll see, within the five scenes of the acting, the action back to the stunts, back to the acting stunts and acting at the same time. It's what you'd see in a normal feature film. So that's where we collaborated and agreed to try and merge the two perfectly and seamlessly to create more of a spectacle for everyone to watch, because ultimately, as you know, some people aren't into action and if they're just watching a film that's just fighting, fighting, fighting and no dialogue, they can get bored maybe. So we wanted to reel in other people, a different audience, who could maybe be captivated and enticed by the acting ability, with the emotion and the drama and the love between myself and my wife, and then also be amazed and astounded by the level of stunts and incredible makeup that's been applied to it and what about your director?

Speaker 1: 35:25

you found a director. It was he an action director?

Speaker 2: 35:28

nick is his name. He's a. He's a director based in brighton and he wasn't actually the director on this, he was the dop. So him and his uh colleague andy, they flip roles between different projects, so they're both DOP and director the pair of them. So for this one, nick was the DOP and Andy was the director.

Speaker 2: 35:48

They tend to focus more on adverts and other short films and TV series, but it's not. They've done a couple action films, but not many, and they've never done anything on this scale. So when I pitched to them and they read the script, they were very excited because, just like for ourselves as performers, this was an opportunity for them to upskill and level up and add to their portfolio and life experience, and I think that's why they were equally, just as interested, because they wanted a challenge and they wanted to do something different, and that's what they were presented and that's what they were. That's what they did, because we delivered on what we promised. I pitched it to them. In a way, I said you can keep doing the same things or maybe you can try something new and see what comes from it. And luckily they they bought into my proposal and they did a fantastic job.

Speaker 1: 36:37

And so how did you find a way to work together? Because obviously there is a piece of choreography that needs to be made, there is a story that needs to be told, but then there is also a big collaboration between the movement of the camera and how you're going to actually film a fighting scene, which is extremely important to make it work. You know what was your creative process in choreographing the camera, in knowing that obviously the dop and the director and people didn't have a massive background yet in that arena like, how did you work together to figure that out?

Speaker 2: 37:14

well, I just I asked them. I said I imagine, when we did the rehearsals I said I imagine this is how you're going to film from these positions, these angles and frames and whatnot. So we would rehearse, I'd send it to them and they'd say, yeah, that looks good, uh, but maybe can you film it that way for us or that speed so we can analyze there better. And then we just kept bouncing back and forth with with uh, previous, previous of our work and then regular meetings on Zoom to iron things out. So when we did the recce, myself and the AD, and again we took photos and videos of the spaces that I wanted to use different scenes then we were able to pre-plan how that would work on the day. To pre-plan how that would work on the day Now, of course more setups were required than anticipated, but because we'd already done some pre-work and experimenting, it did speed up the process for ourselves and the director and DOP.

Speaker 1: 38:10

There was a huge amount of choreography that was already done camera choreography that was already done in rehearsals.

Speaker 2: 38:16

Luckily, quite a few of the team, the fighters, the stunties some of them are really good camera operators themselves in their own right and they're very good at editing as well, and they just understand how to film. So that was very helpful for the dop in particular, because he wasn't just watching someone just standing there with a phone not really know what to do. They knew how to move in to the, how to move with the characters and just basically sell it better. So then they could either take that and tweak it or critique it and then think about how they would do it differently. So there was a lot of pre-work which ultimately helped the process for everyone.

Speaker 1: 38:54

In an ideal scenario we would have done extra rehearsals at the location, but the time and money just wasn't there to do further, further days can you tell us more about the location, because I find the location really breathtaking, both the lights that you got in there I don't know if it was natural light or if you're, you know, like added more light but also the location itself. There is something so unique about it. How did you find it? Can you tell us more of where it is?

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah, I'm very fortunate that I have a brother-in-law who's got a lot of contacts within Hertfordshire and Hemel Hempstead and he was our location manager and he was also our armourer, uh, jason yackel, and he he I'd asked him. I said, look, I'm looking for a location. Have you ever seen the film snatch? It's a british gangster film. It's a well-known action gangster film, british one, and there's a famous part in it with a pig farm and this gangster he basically takes people there to get beaten up and he feeds them to the pigs, basically.

Speaker 2: 39:54

And I really wanted something that was really run down and derelict and the sort of place that it's just dirty and full of rough people who would use it as a hangout. So my brother-in-law said, look, there's a disused cow farm that I have contacts with the owner in Hemel Hempstead. I'm more than happy to ask him if you can hire it and then you can use it. And we went and did the recce, fell in love with the location because there's just so many cool spots to film in different barns, old caravans, broken down buildings. Just the variety of rooms and spaces was significant, some with natural light, some with not.

Speaker 2: 40:37

And yeah, we managed to secure that for a fraction of what it's really worth, to be honest, because if Netflix or Amazon had gone there, they would have been paying so much money in comparison to what we did. So we were lucky that we had an exclusive location that's never been used before for that type of work. It was all of ours. Like I said, it was an entire farm. It was very large premises and we had full reign of what we wanted to do with it, so it was great. You're no one in this country has used that location and when you so, anyone watching this film and you're looking at the spaces we filmed in.

Speaker 1: 41:12

It's completely unique and never been seen before, so that's another usp for us oh yeah, definitely use it as your unique selling point because I like that was the first thing I saw, you know, in the trailer. I was like what is that location?

Speaker 2: 41:24

it's like freaking fantastic yeah, you've got to get the location right, and this one, this one really ticked the boxes. It's exactly what I'd imagined in my head and it's so strange in life sometimes when you imagine something and then you find something that's pretty much what you imagined and it's actually. It exists. I couldn't believe it. It was just amazing. And we managed to have that location for three days. It was just fantastic. The weather was really good, which was great, you know, because a lot of the space we used were open or that we had to deal with the wind blowing through and whatnot. But we just, we were just, we got really lucky. But we're now fortunate, because of my brother-in-law, we have other locations for other type of filming within essentially a 200 mile radius, so there's more to come with what people haven't seen for pure that way amazing.

Speaker 1: 42:13

You also worked with weapons and you said you had an armorer. Can you tell us a little bit, a little bit more about what an armorer does and what you actually need, also in regards to safety when you use weapons on a set?

Speaker 2: 42:26

yes, obviously, any firearms that are on set, whether they're blank firing or not, they must be handled all times by an armorer and only used in exchange of the person who's been selected and is qualified or experienced to hold and handle them. So dale, one of our co-producers and one of the main performers. He was given the, the blank firing, handgun by the armorer, and then, obviously, the safety briefing was done prior to explain to everyone set, crew and cast of the procedure for using the firearm. Where people should be, where they should not be standing. No one is to, obviously, touch the gun or handle the gun apart from the armorer and the performer themselves. This is the key thing there's. There cannot be an exchange of hands under any circumstances, any any other person, so it's just literally the two people who handle that gun and that's that. And, like I mentioned, they were blank bullets.

Speaker 1: 43:25

And is that international law, or is that specific to the UK?

Speaker 2: 43:29

So internationally it varies. Obviously they have their different rules and policies in place in health and safety in different countries. The UK has very strict ones and that's probably why, touch wood we have not had a single incident in the TV and film industry since firearms have been used on set. Now we're still notorious. In the UK don't use guns very often.

Speaker 1: 43:50

And where will we be able to actually see Jekyll and Hyde? Are you going to organize also private screenings or are you just focused on? No, we'll be doing private screenings as well.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Um, so we're going to do one in brighton, because that's where the director and dop are from, and we would like to do one in essex, in one in london you also told me that there was a loud whisper that had been screaming at you for about five years with, I guess, the seed of this idea.

Speaker 1: 44:20

What was the moment where you said I have to make it. And it's now.

Speaker 2: 44:25

After I had a conversation with a person who makes showreels for a living, when he told me that my showreel idea was too ambitious and not possible to do so I thought to myself I need to showcase myself as an actor and a stunt performer in the best way I know how, and that's not by being capped or being held back by someone who doesn't believe in my vision or doesn't allocate the time or effort based on the budget. So the best thing to do is to do it myself. If I want to create the ultimate showreel for myself, I will make my own film, and that's exactly what I did. So that was the pinnacle moment, because I just had enough of talking to people who always said, no, it's too ambitious, or it can't be done, or you should just stick to what everyone else does, and I certainly don't do that.

Speaker 1: 45:13

And that is so important because me as well as an artist, I've been told quite a few times since it's too ambitious. But people that are, you know, saying it's too ambitious, it's just that what they're saying is I don't have the solution for you. I am not that solution orientated to make it happen or yeah, or sometimes.

Speaker 2: 45:32

Sometimes they just don't. They just don't have that same passion and drive because they're in a different position. Obviously, the director and DOP shared the same passion and excitement for my project, so these were the right people to collaborate with. Other times, as you know, you may have met people that they're just not the right people to collaborate with, that you don't have that shared vision. They're just not the right people to collaborate with that you don't have that shared vision or they don't want it enough. Because many people talk, talk about how they want to succeed in life or in their career, but they don't actually try hard enough. They just coast and they hope that luck will come to them. But, as you know, not sound cliche, you must always create your own luck absolutely.

Speaker 1: 46:13

So true, yeah, and so you are somebody that has taken you have taken your own luck, absolutely so, true. And so you are somebody that has taken you have taken your own project off the ground. You have also dipped your toes in different sort of fields. What has been your drive throughout your career?

Speaker 2: 46:29

If you have a dream, you have to pursue it. The moment you stop dreaming is the moment, in my opinion, you live an unhappy lifestyle. I certainly want to live a life that's fulfilling, educational. I'm never stopped learning and ultimately chasing the dream. You know, the child that was in me is still there. I've kept that child alive. The artist, the, the creative, he wants to, he wants to succeed in different mediums and different areas of work and he'll do anything he can to achieve that.

Speaker 2: 47:03

Any naysayers that come up, they're just. They're just a passing, a passing distraction. When you, when you know in your, in your heart and your head, what your potential is, you're like a wrecking ball. So you just keep going, and that's what keeps me going. I obviously have a child. He's three and a half years old, a little boy, and he gave me a massive boost when he was born to be more successful, because I want him to look up to me and be inspired and motivated to chase his dreams as well.

Speaker 2: 47:35

But let's say I didn't have a child For me. I will never take no for an answer. So it doesn't matter what career I work in, what role I have, what position I'm in, I always find a way to pivot and make it work, and that's how you have to be in life to be successful. If you accept people's limitations and what they say you can and can't do, well, you will. You will stay in one place or you will regress. If you want to succeed and be, uh, truly successful in your own right, it doesn't have to be fame. You don't need to be rich. If you're happy in what you're doing, you must keep doing what you love. So, and that's what being thick-skinned is you said you'd never stop learning.

Speaker 1: 48:21

What are you learning at the moment? Or well, what will you start learning next?

Speaker 2: 48:25

so I'm currently learning, or have been the last few weeks learning about foley, sound composing, sound mixing and vfx. So these are all new things I've had to learn about. I've had to, I've had to look for these people I've. So these are all new things I've had to learn about. I've had to. I've had to look for these people. I've had to check over their work. I've had to negotiate with them what type of work they'll be doing, at what price. Now I understand more of the process of their work themselves. So I've learned about four different types of post-production skill sets within the last month. Um, and moving forward.

Speaker 2: 48:55

Now I'm learning about the process of submitting to film festivals and podcasts and promotion through online and physical platforms. You know, uh, newspapers, magazines, like I mentioned. Podcasts, like there's it's now the the promo is the marketing it's, it's, it's the pr. These are some things I've done in other areas or other industries, but within the tv and film world, it's still different. So this is what I love about about it, because I never stop learning. You know, if you, you can. If you just want to be an actor, fair enough. If you just want to be a stunt performer, fair enough. But for me the way I see it. If you truly want, if you truly love what you do, you want to know everything and anything you can about the industry, and that's what I've been doing since I started this film where can we find out more about you, your work and then obviously follow what's going to happen with Jackal and Hyde?

Speaker 2: 49:48

so yeah, so Jackal and Hyde has its own TikTok and Instagram account, which you can follow Jackal and Hyde for. For me personally, I have my own website, which is just my name, my full namecom lealanddonaldsoncom. Obviously, there's more information on me on IMDB and my personal spotlight, jackal and Hyde itself, once we have released it. We're working on making a website just for Jackal and Hyde, so there'll be everything on there in terms of more behind the scenes stuff, the process, the team, um.

Speaker 2: 50:23

The film won't be there, though, because one of the requirements for the film festivals is you're not allowed to have it elsewhere yeah so we won't be able to have that live on on on the internet in that aspect for a while, but there will be lots of trailers and lots of on on the internet in that aspect for a while. But there will be lots of trailers and lots of other parts of the film that can be that allowed that are on there amazing.

Speaker 1: 50:42

I'll make sure that I put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, lee, for all the inspiration thank you, that's a pleasure, thank you. Thank you and uh, wishing you all the best. Wishing you all the best with and jackal, and, and also it as a proof of concept to go further and make your dreams even bigger and better.